What's the deal here?

Is this compulsory testing? What happens if something doesn't pass?

Because as a buyer IDGAF.

I don't care if NASA, Sherlock Holmes and the angel Gabriel say it's legit, because there's nothing to prove that that's what is sent to me.

Some people post lab analysis results: IDGAF because there's nothing to prove that that's what is sent to me.

"Buy the seller."

Bingo

i've echoed this many times in the past along with the test borg

this only proves a products "legitimacy" to the borgs, just like you said, there's nothing to prove that we are receiving the same product as the borg

The borg doesn’t receive any product, they just visually confirm via an unboxing video if it was imported or not.

I disagree with your statement though, it would be very easy to identify if what the vendor is advertising as the imported product is in fact the same one you received or not. You would be able to tell from how it looks, smells, smokes.

the test borg does receive products, these results along with so called lab testing results posted on here are of no use to biggas, do you think that your criteria of "how it looks, smells, smokes" will work for 'lab tested' distillates, vapes, extracts, hash etc

with the anonymity of this site, lab testing etc is very easy to fake and be used for nefarious reasons

me and a few other biggas have called for hash purity testing but as stated above, it's far far too easy to send the test borg legit hash, then send hard working biggas the toxic junk

Sorry my friend I was talking about proof borg.

I was also only thinking about flower as that’s why I’m currently trying to prove import claim for. You’re right it would be much more difficult for concentrates etc.

We would be open to lab testing all our products and have already messaged test borg regarding this. But as you rightly say it is easy for any vendor to do genuine test results on genuine product but then send out toxic trash instead.

Again I would hope reputation and history plays a part in figuring out who’s lying and who’s telling the truth.

It’s not compulsory but as we’ve claimed it is an import the burden of proof is on us, which we have provided.

You’re right that most people will not care, but it is not about that.

Our listing is hidden from the wall until proof borg verifies the claim. This affects our sales.

Fair enough.

Isn't faking a video of a box being opened, rather easy to do?

I appreciate them doing anything towards improving standards, but on the face of it, I can't see much benefit to this particular check.

What does ring enormous fucking alarm bells though, is the fact that someone at LB is stupid enough to ask a criminal for their address.

I agree it can be easily faked and also appreciate them being thorough, but when I’ve done a unboxing video showing all sides of the box and the top and bottom, showing the label on top too, provided trackings too and explained everything in detail, I don’t see what the issue is anymore. Again as I said 50+ sales 50+ reviews and not a single problem with anyone saying it is not import.

And as you say asking for my postcode is ridiculous, sending off alarm bells for sure, I would be interested to know why they asked for that as they didn’t bother explaining, and whether any other vendors on here have ever been asked the same thing?

Does proof borg want me to send my ID and proof of address and take a selfie video with the postman handing me the box? Very unprofessional and silly.

Just to be clear I'm not suggesting your integrity is in doubt, just the strength of the test.

I mean, if they can fake the moon landings...

It’s all good, I completely agree with you my friend.

Cheers 🥂

I've never understood how opening a box on a video and showing the label is meant to prove anything, what's stopping a vendor from showing a shipment of decent bud being opened, getting the import approval then sending out some other shite they found on the dark web?
Not much to prevent that as far as I can tell.

You’re right it doesn’t prove anything and is easily faked, but it’s the best they can do with what they have, what other method would there be for verifying import?

And again you’re right nothing is stopping vendor from verifying import and then sending out some random shite.

We have never and will never do this and hope our reputation showcases that.

Our products are genuinely from America, we don’t even have any contacts for UK products, we don’t consume or sell UK products at all.

We should be allowed to sell it labelled as import and should have our import proof verified, really don’t see what we have done wrong to be messed around for the 4th week now and still getting nowhere and our products are still hidden from the wall as they won’t show until import claim is verified.

Not to mention being asked by the borg for our postcode. 🤦‍♂️

😭

You say that it would be easy to tell the quality, true, if what you send what you are claiming, there's a long history of dodgy vendors here who are trying to get the quick buck then exit so the Biggas need to work out if they can trust you right?

What if a Vendor has approval for an import then sends something else completely to the Bigga?
The Borg have basically helped them scam someone so I really think the methods of proving import should seriously be looked at as its not useful for the community at all!

Also I have friends in the states, they are getting their bud for under $20 an 8th, not all import is created equal or shipped properly/quickly, peoples obsessions with import is hilarious, surely it should be about the quality of the bud and not where it came from.

agree with you, it doesn’t prove anything and the method of proving import does seriously need looking at.

Just the fact that I’m willing to openly discuss all of this in public should show you what kind of person I am, if I was lying or creating fake import proof then I would be hiding away and not wanting to make it public.

We will always send biggas exactly what they ordered and what they see on the media of the listing.

It’s the 4th week and we are still trying to pursue this but aren’t being left any option to resolve this and not being given any help whatsoever from proof borg.

Also the escrow here protects everyone from getting scammed I don’t see the benefit in verifying import proof for genuine product and then sending something completely different.

Generally speaking the USA imports are much better quality and much better priced than most things available in the UK, this could be subjective though.

I hear what you're saying, it's always good to see a vendor interacting with the community and trying to be transparent but you are new, we can all say the right thing at the right time can't we?
Plenty of Vendors are great at saying the right thing till you click send on your order, then some have a lot less to say, and Escrow doesnt protect 100% of your money, there are loopholes in the system some Vendors use very efficiently to fuck over new Biggas.

And i'm not casting any doubt on you guys at all, i'm just saying you might be wasting your time with this proof of import stuff, There are other Vendors selling imported bud without claiming it as that here and i'm sure that's to avoid this, maybe you could rewrite your manifest to explain the origin of the bud in a way so you're not actually saying it, then you avoid regularly having to go through this broken process.

Then you could maybe list some 1g samplers of the product, the Biggas might be more likely to take a risk on it and then they will tell the rest of the community in the reviews how good the product is, it might just be a better use of your time and a better way to get some traffic rolling in than waiting for the Borg to catch up like you have been for 4 weeks.

Might save you a lot of dicking around.

That’s true we are new but we do have 80+ sales in this short space of time with 55 positive reviews. It’s not much compared to some of the big players on here but we don’t leave any genuine customers dissatisfied for any reason.

I didn’t know many vendors were selling imported bud as normal without the import claim, this makes sense now.

Thank you for the genuine sound advice it’s very much appreciated.

We will wait for proof borg to come online again one last time and read our messages and hopefully this topic to see what they decide.

If they don’t want to budge then we may well have to relist our products without the import claim, or word it slightly as a riddle to say it without saying it if that’s allowed.

I’ll have to speak to my partner to see if we can do 1g samples for new customers, hopefully it will be OK.

Cheers 🥂

I don't know if it's many that have the non uk stuff but some have definitely, some list the uk as uk and nothing on the other listings to set it apart, think some will list it like "Budget (UK)" and "Premium" and yeah it's stupid but then so is having a burden of proof without being able to actually prove anything.

I agree with what you said about the quality of most imports but the stuff my mate gets charged 20 bucks for is a similar quality to what we might be charged 40/50 bucks for here I know there's reasons for that but it just seems weird to me that import has come to mean quality for some people.

Let the bud do the talking mate it the best way and its looks good, i'm a sucker for an OG Kush so hoping they get you sorted soon, good luck👊🏻

Like I said I understand why we get charged more for it, there are overheads, the legality and the risk you're taking, by the time this stuff gets to us though its weeks or months older than the condition my mate in the states gets it so now the quality isn't as good, It's still import though, and will still be priced as import.
Why is proof of import even needed? Because people have come to think that it suggests quality. This is what I think is stupid and maybe needs some rethinking by the Borg!

...And the OG Kush situation proves the point further by having to jump through hoops to prove import for a budget strain that would be listed now if you just listed it as being from your grower.

People want proof of import because 'Cali' and 'Import' are terms used to upsell bud now, the fact you're trying to list a budget import but can't shows the mechanism on LB doesn't really work.

The most frustrating part is that they have already accepted our first video that contained Italian Ice and OG Kush, and they even verified our import proof for the Italian Ice listing but they’re refusing to do the same for the OG Kush.

The second box we imported containing the super lemon cherry umami butter is similar looking box and we did everything the same in the video so please someone help us make it make sense.

😭

We’re also at 50+ sales and if our products were not really imports someone would have raised the alarm by now.

Does the exotic super lemon cherry look like UK bud to you?

Why does imported weed and UK grown weed look different? Is it the trim job? Or is imported weed grown differently to all UK grown weed which makes it look different? Genuinely curious.

Your parcel from EPG [ePostglobal] - ORD [Chicaco O’Hare International Airport]

So we’ve submitted unboxing video, submitted tracking number which is titled as being ePostglobal and coming from Chicago, but apparently this is still not enough.

Don’t bait the routeeees

What else am I supposed to do? I get 4 word replies every few days from proof borg and it’s been going in circles for 3-4 weeks in a row.

They’re calling me a liar so I’m pulling out all evidence I can to refute this. As they say, Argue like a bigga.

Long bro I personally don’t bother to do proof even though every gram I sold on this site was grown in CA OR or WA

Good Green sells itself anyone landing work has been stung with scrap lbs atleast once in there career lol

If I was you I’d make all my greens in the one listing seems what most big sellers on here do. My worst selling product is at the top of the wall in Ireland just because I’ve had it up longer than the greens. Seems the older your ad is, the higher up on the wall. Doesn’t matter for me no competition in Ireland but if I was competing UK that’s what I’d do 100%.

dam now i gotta go to reddit to tell my lies

That's not at all complicated, is it? I bet less than a handful of people will ever manage to follow these instructions, unfortunately. Nice initiative though.

Certainly not as simple as criticising.

There is no criticism, I just have no confidence in people's abilities to follow simple instructions after years of bitter experience, even with people supposedly intelligent and educated to degree level and above. I'd love to be proved wrong and see multiple examples of these instructions being followed correctly as it would greatly help alleviate my jaded faith in humanity in general.

Interesting, but who's doing the vetting?

AI?

There's a world of difference between "My mate Dave reckons..." and "In their peer-reviewed paper, Professors Dave, Dave and Dave (no relation) demonstrate that..."

It's AI isn't it?

And I'm with Rux: you lost me at "share link".

And given the perculiarities of navigating this site, requiring the user to find this page again , each time they want to query something, is another hurdle people won't bother to try jumping.

I suggest a button integrated into each post (cf the report button), would be more likely to be used.

But then we're back to the question of who's doing the fact-checking.

£20 it's AI.

I'm sorry I can't be more positive, because I sincerely appreciate that you are trying to improve my QoL here.

Well done, no good deed is unpunished with some biggaz but you are surely appreciated.

People only understand what they understand, usually that means themselves.

Canon borg provided some more information, this might help:

A new borg is born! Or as we say "forked". In this case forked from cleanup borg, whose general function is removing harmful content from little biggy.

Proof borg isolates particular content, parsing the words that cleanup borg reads to find provable, trustless data.

Proof borg's (littlebiggy.org/4821348) 1st objective is analysing contests for provably fair results, thus preventing manipulated outcomes.

Despite the particularly computative nature of this borg, it's still all of our words that remain it's heart.

1st objective? Sounds like there is more coming..

Yes, terrible people understanding themselves wishing to make this a better place for new vendors and biggas. We should hang our heads in shame 🙄.
As you can clearly see a majority of the community that has engaged actually totally agree about the wall. I would say that democracy is probably not on your side here.
Infact, I think only 3 people have had anything negative to say. 2 of those biggas joined in the same month of the same year and were supporting the other's abstract point and had both coincidentally been offline for 3 days at time of writing so, that means 2 people max in my eyes.

liz truss, democracy, post modernism and paranoid accounting. bigga please. this borg announced actually helping and doing something for us. if you care about the topics wall then it should be obvious that contests get lots of attention from the algorithm, they are starting to dominate the wall and presumably bs ones were proliferating. and we are talking about the front page for this site.

what are the choices they have here? they could be lazy and kill all contests (basically the reddit mod move) or even lazier and let the wall be filled with people trying to enter a zero barrier to entry scam.

this is why i gave you the link to the wall bot. if you have some ideas great, but let someone (something?) that's trying to help do their job.

Ad hominem attacks, invalid arguments, building a strawman.
It's clear you have some dog in this fight, I just wish you would be upfront about it and say, "Sorry Biggas, the wall is perfect and not going to get any better"
It should be obvious from the thread, that people think there are better priorities than comps.
The choice i suggested here is that if somebody doesn't sell an item for over a year, the item should disappear from the wall way before this for a more recently listed item.
You are trying to position this as merely a binary choice -"the wall stays as it is, or it is filled with exit scams"
You know as well as I do that the wall can be fixed without making it susceptible to exit scams.
I see you ignored every point about the fact that LB bots paying lip service to change, but rarely actually makes any.
It's true isn't it? That's why it feels pointless to actually message the wallbot.
I echo what Polly says, if the site doesn't want meaningful dialogue about how to improve, then just say so and we won't bother.

It would help if borgs worked with vendors to make contests provably fair instead of just deleting everything.

Everything can be made easier with a bit of dialogue.

100% , but it's quicker to just click delete 😐

It'd be really good if there was a "wall borg" that was as diligent as you say you will be on this subject.
There are vendors items on that wall that have had no reviews in almost 400 days. Given how easy it is for the owners of the site to make anybody they like invisible to the wall, I find this incidence really puzzling. I hope there is no favours involved in that?
On the last reviews of the particular example item I am talking about (there are many more items like this on the wall) 3 of the last visible reviews in the last 5 from over a year ago are saying the item didn't arrive, vendor ignored them and comms were really bad.
Meanwhile, some new vendors wait and wait and wait to get an item on the wall, but never end up there.
I think this is provably unfair, if I'm really honest.
The dominoes are falling in Europe - Czech and Germany are legalising soon. We will be at the hundredth monkey soon.
I love this place, I really do but the reality is that more of these kind of places will pop up as decriminalisation advances through the West, somebody will copycat the idea for a lightnet weed escrow service with a server in a legal country - and at this point it would not be too hard to change a few simple things to improve the model we have here.
I think the site owners really need to listen to the people who use this site and actually implement some changes that people suggest.
A good example was months back when everybody lost loads of money on Truss' and Kwarteng's historical mini budget disaster. Somebody started an initiative and hundreds voted FOR change to currency listing to £'s so we aren't all at the mercy of the exchange rate as well as btc fluctuation. Not a single fuck given by the site owners.
I don't think it will take alot to make this place hard to better.
Regards
E

the wall bot is here.

As I read it “diligence” was the issue, not existence. But thanks for the downvotes anyhow🤷‍♂️

sorry but its one thing to see you consistently talk out of your ass and another to read accusations that come from the same place.

i do understand how tea leaf reading all day can lead to this though, the borgs do not give out a lot of information about how the wall works and the people that don't like outcomes are left to speculate.

on the other hand this seems pretty difficult, maybe impossible, search engines never disclose their algorithm because they don't want manipulation.

borgs have made quite a few posts about how things work. you're a class act polly, (no retributive downvote underscores this ;) ) and you care about this community we all love. its obvious these folks stand on their head to give users a voice and to do things right, there must be a better path for you than this.

I've been a mod on other sites and the thing is an open mic inevitably goes to shit. Idiots dominate because worthwhile folks get turned off so it metastasises. Curtail this and then you're censoring and that starts a shit vibe of its own. There is no such thing as a 100% win and if you think 50 50 is fair then you get increasing polaisation and a nasty mood all of the time. It's gotta be way worse when there is commerce at stake.

This post is a great example, here is a borg setting a very high standard for this community in an unobjectionable way, it's pretty much impossible to find fault with it or question motives but immediately people come in with their own agendas.

Good luck borgs

So, just to be clear, we as the community shouldn't make suggestions for improvement when we see an obvious conflict in priority when it comes to talking about fairness?
I think we all realise the nature of this place means no such thing as 100% win. It's not amazon, but suggesting improvements to the fairness in how the wall works (as well as the contests) doesn't seem to me to be objectively unrealistic in any way.

Of course not but

1 It's hella off topic for this post.
Have you ever seen a standard for contests that doesn't rely on authority? That's more relevant and a lot more interesting than liz truss.

2 How is it a "community priority" that the wonderwall reflect outcomes that an excluded group is going to, by definition, be unsatisfied with? Do you understand that this will *always* be the case and that with an open mic this opinion will always be voiced just like this, with a cabal of the effected very honestly believing they represent a consensus?

In any event I think the item walls is a frustrating place to shop and should be torn down like the one in Berlin, with charming bits left to reflect history :)






2 what exactly is the suggestion

1. It was about fairness. I didn't engage an abstract discussion on post-modernism as a response.
I didn't say that there should be no standards, so in my eyes that's a bit of a strawman. It's OK to point out that some things are fair, but other things aren't right? Both things can be true. To what degree must we stay on topic? Especially as I ask why the diligence on this thing, but not on the wonder wall.

2. That as it may be - it's not really me that the wall issues effect - but i can see it from a mile off personally. It is new vendors and new buyers I feel it is unfair on which I am sure the site owners will hope are making up a significant majority for their own continued prosperity.
My suggestion is that if an item hasn't visibly sold any in 370 days, it probably isn't much in demand and a newbie may fall into this trap by not reading - it should probably disappear before this in place of a more recent listing (just in my opinion)..

if an item hasn't visibly sold any in 370 days, it probably isn't much in demand and a newbie may fall into this trap by not reading - it should probably disappear

bigg up.

You do know there is a Borg for ideas & site innovations don’t you?…(in fact there is a Borg for an awful lot of things). LB constantly invites Biggas to get involved and that’s the point- LB pays lip service to change but rarely makes any despite volume of voice. Why is it wrong to point that out?

I doubt anyone loves LB more than I do but they either want a meaningful dialogue or they don’t. I’m fine with it either way as long as I get to buy my weed😎

Bit weird….

It's funny i only ever see coldspurs cheering on the borgs. they love these cold bots rather then this beautiful community.
all your points are mute when you need to start insulting polly's life choices Polly has always been a wonderful voice for the community rather then you coldspurs spending your life being Nelly negative

Yes, I wish the bots were colder, like the code that runs bitcoin. Open code is what this place needs more than anything else.

this this this

Thanks pal, not quite sure what rattled coldspurs but they clearly needed to get me off their chest😂😉

If one doesn't get at least some in here, I think one is being too nice.
Still, I killed man with kindness and upvoted that link.
Wonder if they find the wall helpful for finding the things they want?
I don't. Still, bookmarking pages is pretty easy.
(Insert generic uplifting remark)
E

This is speculative but, I think the site may be in $ for 'legal' reasons. The servers are US based.

I agree that the owner could do better with prioritising changes, top of that list for me is all these fake vapes, or spice vapes that need testing and removing. Maybe even temp banning from the items wall for the vendors, as a deterrent.

If a vape is confirmed fake because the original brand doesn't even manufacture them in the first place, or there's obvious errors like spelling mistakes,.fake QR codes, why aren't they being removed?

i would like a wall filter tested/untested at the very base level

Great sentiments, very well expressed.

Frankly I’m stunned by how much LB gets its Borg knickers in a twist over a few competitions being “demonstrably fair” instead of focusing on those things on the site that are “demonstrably unfair”.

Maybe “proof borg” will be a breath of fresh air 🙏🏽, but not if they are convinced that competitions are a real issue….

Agreed…

Why the sudden fuss over this when there are other more important changes to make. (Which have been mentioned on here for years) Never heard anyone complain about competitions. Lol

I agree with Polly, bigger issues onsite to be looked into than fake giveaways, this is a start, hopefully more positive changes are made soon. 💯

SOTL

Honestly at this point it feels like they make us use $ purely out of spite I can't think of any other possible explanation now, can't just be lazyness when they have time for this sort of thing. Maybe they didn't like us asking so much.

the item writer they are currently building, it lets you set several different currencies.

Well its good to see it hasn't been ignored/forgotton over the years, I'll take back my comments as soon its implemented :)

We randomly select numbers for our giveaways using random.org, we also stream it on YouTube Live for everyone to see. I'm happy that something is being done regarding giveaways / contests, nice one proof borg.

SOTL

The borgs picking the wrong fight,sort your wall out,fix the pricing from usd.i mean you got someone who's contributing to lb with giveaways to biggas and its getting jumped on.Theres more important stuff that needs fixing

Smallest wang wins?🤔

Where can i claim my prize🪱

You do have to love this. Biggy all involved in contests. People enter. They win. They don’t win. Nobody really cares.

When it comes to a payment system that doesn’t bankrupt everyone.

Silence. You ain’t seen us.

Vendors. Keep doing your competitions. Nobody gives 3 shits even if they are fixed. Nobody is losing.

And if all the drama is someone getting butthurt.

Meh. We’ve been there.

Nice work borg :)

If the seller is holding the contest and judging how is that fair?

Because it's declared a subjective contest.

The contest runner as judge is the basis of most subjective contests irl (think of tv shows). However in our case the declared winner is run against anti cybil algos that are used elsewhere on lb. We also have the voice of the other participants and the ongoing reputation stakes that drive analysis like this.

This is one of the most intriguing insights behind the curtain that I've seen posted.

thanks, that makes sense

Seemed a bit harsh shutting Pistach latest contest down before even giving them chance to say how the winners would be decided.... I'm not saying that just because I entered btw! but surely if your point is to prove it's fair then you have to actually let the sellers prove it's fair?

Hello. Can I have some help with my giveaway please?

I want to make sure I'm adhering to the rules.

MM 💚

They have all been for manipulation to gain self promotion and unfair ness in community. - They are all "worked" like politics. Clearly easy to work out the agenda of it all. Yet others got smacked up for less.

Not won many competitions then Andy?…😂😂

SLAYED me

When a vendor does a guess the BTC competition how do they know when someone edits their answer after the cutoff time?

The ability to alter answers after the cutoff time makes these competitions probably unfair.

Replying to a comment removes the ability to edit it

I tought commenting on many in a row could trigger spam in the algorithm so was avoiding it on giveaways

Yes, there is existing functionality here to analyse the vote count. What kind of contest did you have in mind?

George best😉

Never forgotten 🥰
Number 2

Davie Cooper
not a football fan but my dad was and he took me to the games and we went to Davie Coopers testimonial.

Legend.

Number 1.
Bonus points for making me google him 😂

Harambe!

Brb signing onto next account for another go 😂

A footballer? A celebrity? A legend.
Facts. Sadly missed and as we all know it’s all gone completely to shit since his death.
Rest in power big guy.
Number 15

Kenny Dalglish ,legend

Oh man, imagine a team with dalglish & souness today.
Number 11

Michael owen

My god the pace and excitement of young Owen made me think England would start winning World Cup knock out games again.
Also underrated as a pundit and no doubt a decent guy too.
Number 13

Bet you have this on your Santa’s list

Ian Rush

Top tier for the Tash alone!
Number 33

Robbie fowler 💯👌🔥

Number 51

Stokie so its gotta be Stanley Matthew's. Cant forget about Gordon banks though

Matthews is one I wish I’d seen. No way there’s that much hype if it’s not justified 🙏🏻
Number 10

Dave Mackay, a legend at Heart Of Midlothian and Tottenham Hotspur.

Also Drew Busby played for Heart Of Midlothian FC.
RIP.

Mackay was an absolute legend. A name that deserves to be remembered forever!
Number 9.

I've had the pleasure of being in Dave's company and listening to some of his stories, what a guy he is, and as you say "a legend and a name that deserves to be remembered forever" RIP ❤️❤️

Eric Cantona!

There’s one knobhead in Croydon that will never forget the king!
Not sure I feel the same about his music though!
Number 5

Never saw him play, but read the book about him, amazing read…..Robin Friday…Reading FC…..from what I read could have been up there with best of them but for his demons……massively recommend reading the book, specially if you are a football fan….

Heard the name a lot, this is deffo worth a look. This passage alone jumps out “ Following a number of incidents, on and off the field—including kicking Mark Lawrenson in the face mid-game ” I think we’ve all fancied that before.
Number 3.

Congrats CLEARH20.
Winner with number 45.
Thank you so much everyone for all your blasts from the past!!
I’ll run another comp next week as this has been so much fun.
Next time I’ll keep
It within prove it borgs rules 🙏🏻

Peter shamichael ( please excuse the spelling)

Frog splash 🐸
Number 41

Got to be Gaza. Paul Gascoigne what a player

Not a single word of argument from me. Iconic.
Number 40

Basically anyone mentioned in Ant and Decs long forgotten song ‘We’re on the ball’ 😂

Nailed it. You should be a sky sports pundit 😂
Number 37

Ravanelli ✌️

Back when foreign talent was genuinely exciting. Imagine being so good you made Middlesbrough glamorous!
Number 34

Got to be Terry butcher !! That bandaged head!! Lol

I’ll start going all ‘old man’ and ‘not like it used to be’ if we start talking about that big beautiful bastard.
Number 22

If we're talking best players then Dennis Bergkamp. As for forgotten players I'd have to go with Michael Thomas, I'll never forget him, but he was responsible for the greatest end to a season there will ever be and he's not exactly a household name.